Jisho.org Forum

I'm pretty sure that the radical for 無 is fire, no.86 on this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kangxi_radicals (Chinese list, but also used on Denshi Jisho if you go to the Kanji page and put these kanji in)

However, 魚 and 馬 are radicals in themselves, 195 and 187.

I think there may be some dispute about whether the dots on the fish and the horse actually represent fire or not, and that may be what your teacher is talking about. Still, in standard lists they're not found with the water radical.

I have always heard that that "part" (as it's not really a radical in the true sense of the word in all kanji) is supposed to be a deformed fire kanji, and if i remember correctly, 魚 was actually used as the example. However, I also do not think such things are 100% known, we can only speculate. It makes sense to assume that part comes from 火, it shares the meaning in some situations, it's 4 strokes etc, but I doubt there's any real proof that the part formed from the fire hanzi, or the water hanzi for that matter.

It can be both actually.

Take 黑 for example. In Chinese it was a seal script showing a flame (2 x 火) under an exhaust/window, which blackens. The window became squared and the flame was adjusted (⺣) and that's how we got the current design for black: 黑. I love this book about the etymology of hanzi I have here. So here it is fire.

Take 燕 though. It's a bird flying from the north (北), over the water (⺣), carrying a blade (一) of grass (⺾) in its mouth (口). (The bird is a swallow.)

Posted By: asmodai

[p]It can be both actually.[/p][p]Take 黑 for example. In Chinese it was a seal script showing a flame (2 x 火) under an exhaust/window, which blackens. The window became squared and the flame was adjusted (⺣) and that's how we got the current design for black: 黑. I love this book about the etymology of hanzi I have here. So here it is fire.[/p][p]Take 燕 though. It's a bird flying from the north (北), over the water (⺣), carrying a blade (一) of grass (⺾) in its mouth (口). (The bird is a swallow.)[/p][span class=CommentSignature]Yes, I am a bluntly honest type.[/span]

That's awesome :) Must make it much easier to remember the kanji as well.

I had the descriptions from a book on Chinese characters and their origins. The one I have is a Dutch translation, but I think this is the same book in English:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1932457003/

Caveat emptor, of course.

Ok, both is fine with me! :)
What's the difference between radical and part? o.O

Posted By: Moberg

[p]Ok, both is fine with me! :)

What's the difference between radical and part? o.O[/p]

A kanji only has one radical, and it can be kind of hard to know which part of a kanji is the actual radical.

A kanji has several parts however. For example: 札 is made up of two parts. 木 and 乙. Which one is the radical in that kanji, I don't know. Radicals are an old way of looking kanji up, you simply looked at the kanji, found the radical and searched in a dictionary which was sorted by radicals.

The modern approach used on jisho.org where you search by parts is MUCH better in my opinion.

Yes and no.

Knowing the on'yomi of the kanji that the radical is, will, 9 times out of 10, give you the on'yomi of the kanji with said radical in it for use in compound words.
Of course, there are enough cases where the radical is not what you expect. I must say that after 2 or 3 years your radical determination skills get much more accurate (at least based on my own experiences).

Posted By: asmodai

[p]Yes and no.[/p][p]Knowing the on'yomi of the kanji that the radical is, will, 9 times out of 10, give you the on'yomi of the kanji with said radical in it for use in compound words.

Of course, there are enough cases where the radical is not what you expect. I must say that after 2 or 3 years your radical determination skills get much more accurate (at least based on my own experiences).[/p][span class=CommentSignature]Yes, I am a bluntly honest type.[/span]

Ah okey, like 紅 in 紅葉 is pronounced こう as 工?

[/quote][p]Ah okey, like 紅 in 紅葉 is pronounced こう as 工?[/p][/quote]

Exactamundo.

Posted By: asmodai

[p]Knowing the on'yomi of the kanji that the radical is, will, 9 times out of 10, give you the on'yomi of the kanji with said radical in it for use in compound words.[/p]

But surely it's the onyomi for the part (or parts) of the kanji that isn't the radical that tells you the pronuniciation. In the example Moberg gives '工' isn't the radical, '糸' is.

銅 and 胴 are both pronounced 'dou' because they both have a 同 in, but their radicals are 金 and 肉 (or 月). There are lots more examples.

It may seem like a pedantic point but the similarities in the parts that aren't the radical are usually a lot more visible than similarities in radicals can be. You don't have to recognise that one part is similar, but that most of the kanji is similar.

There are some radicals that are easy to spot, but I'm with Tobberoth in preferring the Denshi Jisho system.

Posted By: Richard

[quote]

Posted By: asmodai

[p]Knowing the on'yomi of the kanji that the radical is, will, 9 times out of 10, give you the on'yomi of the kanji with said radical in it for use in compound words.[/p]

[p]But surely it's the onyomi for the part (or parts) of the kanji that isn't the radical that tells you the pronuniciation. In the example Moberg gives '工' isn't the radical, '糸' is.[/p][p]銅 and 胴 are both pronounced 'dou' because they both have a 同 in, but their radicals are 金 and 肉 (or 月). There are lots more examples.[/p][/quote]

You're right. Denshi Jisho lists 紅 under both 工 and 糸, but my kanji book only has it under 糸. Denshi Jisho is therefore easier to use if you don't know which part of the kanji is the radical (although if you're using a book, I think it's easier to just go by stroke count anyway, rather than needing to know the number of what may or may not be the radical). Then, once you've clicked on the kanji from the list, the details of that kanji actually tell you what the radical is. Nice.

Posted By: Richard

[p]But surely it's the onyomi for the part (or parts) of the kanji that isn't the radical that tells you the pronuniciation. In the example Moberg gives '工' isn't the radical, '糸' is.[/p][p]銅 and 胴 are both pronounced 'dou' because they both have a 同 in, but their radicals are 金 and 肉 (or 月). There are lots more examples.[/p]

Then I reversed it in my mind, mea culpa.