Jisho.org Forum

Don't forget that something close to the speaker is この. Basically この is 'this', その is 'that' (near you) and あの is 'that' (over there).

Like Richard said, その is that which is near and あの is that which is further away.

Think of it as being at a table in a restaurant. If your next to the window and point to something outside that would be like あの but if its on your table or maybe on the table next to you then その would be the best usage.

Posted By: Richard

Don't forget that something close to the speaker is この.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but この is 'this', not 'that'. I'm wondering if there's a way where I can say 'that', but still refer to something close to me and distant from the listener.

Thanks though!

Posted By: Zaf9670

Think of it as being at a table in a restaurant. If your next to the window and point to something outside that would be like あの but if its on your table or maybe on the table next to you then その would be the best usage.

Thank you! That helps a lot.

Another rule is that この refers to what belongs to (or close to) me (I, the speaker), その refers to what belongs to (or close to) you (the person I am speaking to), and あの refers to what belongs to others not with I and you (he or she).

この本は私のです. その本はあなたのです. あの本は彼のです.

Posted By: ccpan

[p]Another rule is that この refers to what belongs to (or close to) me (I, the speaker), その refers to what belongs to (or close to) you (the person I am speaking to), and あの refers to what belongs to others not with I and you (he or she).[/p][p]この本は私のです. その本はあなたのです. あの本は彼のです.[/p]

Thanks, your explanation helps a lot!

Posted By: ccpan

[p]Another rule is that この refers to what belongs to (or close to) me (I, the speaker), その refers to what belongs to (or close to) you (the person I am speaking to), and あの refers to what belongs to others not with I and you (he or she).[/p][p]この本は私のです. その本はあなたのです. あの本は彼のです.[/p]

I am afraid to say that you are wrong. There is no rule like that, possession.

For example, I could just say:

その本は私のです、あの本はあなたのです、この本は彼のです。

I think that you missed my point. Of course I could say その本は私のです, but even so, I am still refering the book at YOUR site, not at my site.

Posted By: ccpan

[p]I think that you missed my point. Of course I could say その本は私のです, but even so, I am still refering the book at YOUR site, not at my site.[/p]

I think that you used a bad example and word, that will only confuse the OP. You might know, but the OP doesn't.

You could just say something like that;

この　- something that is near to the speaker
その　- something near to the person to whom the speaker is talking.
あの　- far from both

Well, I have to say that you explained it more clearly than I did. Thank you.

Yeah, keep it simple and don't worry too much. When in doubt, point! :-D

I have confirmed this with my Japanese teacher so I am very sure about it.
"この, その, あの" acutally is more about "relation" rather than "distance". That is quite confusing to foreigners. For example, I am in Japan, Alice is in US, and Tom is in another city of Japan. When I talk with Alice (by telephone), I mention the things at Alice's site as その, but things at Tom's site as あの even though Alice is far from me than Tom is. The reason is that Alice is the person I am talking to, while Tom is not, depite Tom is nearer to me in location.

It's dangerous to think of it as simply distance, and even going with relation isn't true for all cases. There are abstract kinds of この、その and あの as well which makes a big difference when talking about things. For example, if you're talking to a guy on the phone about a restaurant you went to a week earlier, would you say このレストラン, そのレストラン or あのレストラン? In this case it has nothing to do with distance, it has to do with the assumed knowledge. I'm not an expect but if I remember correctly, この should be used if it's something the speaker knows about but assumes the other person does not know about, for example, introducing a new restaurant. その is the opposite, maybe talking about a restaurant the other guy introduced. あの assumes a mutual knowledge and understanding. Therefore in my example above, あのレストラン would be correct since you went to that restaurant together, so both know about it well.

Posted By: ccpan

[p]I have confirmed this with my Japanese teacher so I am very sure about it.

"この, その, あの" acutally is more about "relation" rather than "distance". That is quite confusing to foreigners. For example, I am in Japan, Alice is in US, and Tom is in another city of Japan. When I talk with Alice (by telephone), I mention the things at Alice's site as その, but things at Tom's site as あの even though Alice is far from me than Tom is. The reason is that Alice is the person I am talking to, while Tom is not, depite Tom is nearer to me in location.[/p]

The point made above about distance is that その is something near to the person you are speaking to, and あの is "far" (but not necessarily equidistant) from both.

You highlighted the fact that Tom is nearer to you than Alice is, but that's irrelevant - what matters is that he's far from Alice (but not close enough to you for この).

So it makes perfect sense from the point of view of distance to use その for things at Alice's site, and あの for things at Tom's site, when you're talking to Alice - there's no need to bring in the idea of relation to explain this particular example.

Posted By: Tobberoth

[p]It's dangerous to think of it as simply distance, and even going with relation isn't true for all cases. There are abstract kinds of この、その and あの as well which makes a big difference when talking about things. For example, if you're talking to a guy on the phone about a restaurant you went to a week earlier, would you say このレストラン, そのレストラン or あのレストラン? In this case it has nothing to do with distance, it has to do with the assumed knowledge. I'm not an expect but if I remember correctly, この should be used if it's something the speaker knows about but assumes the other person does not know about, for example, introducing a new restaurant. その is the opposite, maybe talking about a restaurant the other guy introduced. あの assumes a mutual knowledge and understanding. Therefore in my example above, あのレストラン would be correct since you went to that restaurant together, so both know about it well.[/p]

But entering in this subject will not help the OP, about abstracts stuffs.

In this case I could use その too, even both knowing about the レストラン.

- 昨日いったあのレストラン覚えてる？
- ええ。
- そのレストランは bla bla bla

humm, I think that in this case その is related with what was said before. :O whatever...


Again, there is no kind of rule about "belongs". That really confused the OP. It's better to him to stick with distance.

Posted By: Kyo

[quote]

Posted By: Tobberoth

[p]It's dangerous to think of it as simply distance, and even going with relation isn't true for all cases. There are abstract kinds of この、その and あの as well which makes a big difference when talking about things. For example, if you're talking to a guy on the phone about a restaurant you went to a week earlier, would you say このレストラン, そのレストラン or あのレストラン? In this case it has nothing to do with distance, it has to do with the assumed knowledge. I'm not an expect but if I remember correctly, この should be used if it's something the speaker knows about but assumes the other person does not know about, for example, introducing a new restaurant. その is the opposite, maybe talking about a restaurant the other guy introduced. あの assumes a mutual knowledge and understanding. Therefore in my example above, あのレストラン would be correct since you went to that restaurant together, so both know about it well.[/p]

[p]But entering in this subject will not help the OP, about abstracts stuffs.[/p][p]In this case I could use その too, even both knowing about the レストラン.[/p][p]- 昨日いったあのレストラン覚えてる？
- ええ。
- そのレストランは bla bla bla[/p][p]humm, I think that in this case その is related with what was said before. :O whatever...[/p][p]Again, there is no kind of rule about "belongs". That really confused the OP. It's better to him to stick with distance.[/p][/quote]
Nah, he's going to be confused when he gets into situations where those words are used in ways which has nothing at all do to with distance.

I really recommend him (and others who don't know about this) to read this: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/columns/0002/pdf/ppp071.pdf

It's extra important because a LOT of foreigners don't know about this and use it incorrectly. Natives understand and won't comment it, but it makes said person sound unnatural, so it's immediately obvious that they aren't Japanese and are still learning the language. However, since it's always accepted, the student won't even notice that they are speaking unnatural Japanese.

あの....I must admit that sticking to distance does not work at all time for foreigners. A native Japanese can feel what is right and what is wrong, but a foreigner does not have such 直感 (how far is far? how near is near? which distance I should use? the distance between the object and speaker? the distance between the object and listener? and so on and so on.) If distance is so simple, there would not be the thread here. This is why we must find out something other than "distance". And there are many situations that have nothing to do with distance, as Japanese people frequently say "あの....".

Here is a true example about how "distance" could be confusing. I indeed asked the above example (I, Tom, Alice) to my classmates and I got different answers. One said that we should use この for Tom because he is near to me. One said we should use その for Tom and あの for Alice because Tom is nearer to me than Alice is. All those incorrect answers were based on DISTANCE!!!!!! Finally our teacher (a native Japanese) told us that all things with Alice should be called その, her house, her car, her job, the weather of her place (Kyo you might argue that her house may belong to another person and the weather does not belong to her), and all things with Tom, あの, all things with me, この. The reason is that Alice is the person I am talking to, while Tom is not, regardless of "distance". See? No "distance" at all. Just a kind of relation. I seriously doubt whether Japanese people really have "distance" in their mind when they use those words.
Finally, the site Tobberoth recommended is great. You may go to http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/columns/0002/. There are 92 lessons now. Many of them are interesting and useful.

I've always kinda felt that it had the same meanings as this and that in English, in most situations anyways. You wouldn't really say 'That guy' to someone close to you unless you were trying to emotionally distance yourself. And you wouldn't say 'This book' to your book that someone else is holding.

But there was one more lesson that has been kinda mentioned by others from my text, so I'll paraphrase it again. This is more for the mental, not physical distance. While both あの and その mean "that", when you use あの to refer to something that is not in sight, it implies that both the speaker and listener should be familiar with it. Ex. When two friends talk about a mutual friend who isn't there, they can use あの人. When only one person, the speaker or the listener, is familiar with an item then その is used.

I took a look at the site Tobberoth recommended and found it really helpful. Thanks!

From what this (http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/columns/0002/pdf/ppp071.pdf) says, I think その is only used for something the listener is familiar with. So, I'm assuming that you use この for things only you (the speaker) are familiar with, even when you want to talk about 'that thing' and not 'this thing'.

Posted By: ccpan

[p]Here is a true example about how "distance" could be confusing. I indeed asked the above example (I, Tom, Alice) to my classmates and I got different answers. One said that we should use この for Tom because he is near to me. One said we should use その for Tom and あの for Alice because Tom is nearer to me than Alice is. All those incorrect answers were based on DISTANCE!!!!!! Finally our teacher (a native Japanese) told us that all things with Alice should be called その, her house, her car, her job, the weather of her place (Kyo you might argue that her house may belong to another person and the weather does not belong to her), and all things with Tom, あの, all things with me, この. The reason is that Alice is the person I am talking to, while Tom is not, regardless of "distance". See? No "distance" at all. Just a kind of relation. I seriously doubt whether Japanese people really have "distance" in their mind when they use those words.

Finally, the site Tobberoth recommended is great. You may go tohttp://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/columns/0002/.There are 92 lessons now. Many of them are interesting and useful.[/p]

I got what you meant, I was just playing devil's advocate because I didn't think you'd chosen a very good example. The fact is, the example you gave of Alice and Tom could plausibly be explained either by distance (その for what is physically close to Alice, あの for what is physically far from her) or by relation (その for things related to Alice, あの for things that aren't). Maybe the relationship is more relevant, but the scenario doesn't clearly show that, we're just expected to take your word for it.

A clearer example would be:
I am in Tokyo, while Alice and Tom are just a few streets away from each other in Chicago. When I talk with Alice (by telephone), I mention the things at Alice's site as その, but things at Tom's site as あの. The reason is that Alice is the person I am talking to, while Tom is not, although Tom is near to Alice in location.

Interesting discussion!

I asked my Japanese friend, and she said that for abstract things only you (the speaker) are familiar with, you use あの. But this would contradict with the .pdf Tobberoth posted.

Well, I myself have no idea on this matter. I'm sure the best thing to do is ask someone Japanese.