i-adj-ku + naru/suru
  • Isn't it weird that adjectives take the adverbial form before suru and naru?
    I mean in English you would say: "I paint the painting green" and _not_ "I paint the painting greenly".

    so why?
  • Posted By: Moberg
    [p]Isn't it weird that adjectives take the adverbial form before suru and naru?
    I mean in English you would say: "I paint the painting green" and _not_ "I paint the painting greenly".[/p][p]so why?[/p]


    Since japanese isn't directly related to english, I don't see why it would have to conform to that. The reason could be something as simple as... it simply sounding better that way.
  • Just like Hindi or Thai like to repeat words to strengthen them. Would not make much sense in most Germanic languages to say "he crawled by softly softly" unless you aim for poetry and such constructs.
  • repeat?

    I just wonder why they say, "shizuka NI shiro", instead of "shizuka (na) shiro" or "akaku naru" instead of "akai naru"...
  • Posted By: Moberg
    [p]repeat?[/p][p]I just wonder why they say, "shizuka NI shiro", instead of "shizuka (na) shiro" or "akaku naru" instead of "akai naru"...[/p]


    Because akai naru would mean "an akai naru" as if the word naru was an object. Shizuka na shirou would mean something like "do it quietly", but not like the english meaning, just like before it would mean that shirou is a verb that should be done quietly, not that the verb being referred to should be done quietly.

    Man that explenation didn't explain anything. The point is that japanese grammar works this way, you can't simply change it because "it would sound more like english this way".
  • Yes I know japanese isn't english, or any other alnguage, I'm just wondering why it works that way...

    So what do you mean "shizukana taberu" would translate to?
  • I'm not sure if I quite understand your question Moberg, but a quick check on google shows 'shizuka na taberu' doesn't mean anything, and is never used.

    If your general question is why are languages the way they are, then it's a bit too deep and philosophical for me to answer. When I've taught English before, and my students ask me why English follows a particular irregular or seemingly irrational rule, then I just say that's the way it is, and that I didn't invent the language. (Tongue in cheek, of course).
  • Posted By: Moberg
    [p]Yes I know japanese isn't english, or any other alnguage, I'm just wondering why it works that way...[/p][p]So what do you mean "shizukana taberu" would translate to?[/p]

    You can't say shizuka na taberu. Since that means you're talking about a quiet thing, you have to make the verb into a thing. Thus you can say "shizuka na taberu koto" which basically means "a quiet way of eating". I doubt japanese people would use that expression though.
  • I asked one of my friends and she was wondering a bit about it. She said it would be more like 黙って食べる or 音を立てないで食べる, but the way she took her time I think the example is a forced one. :)
  • Hmm, so noone has like some rule to remember that adjectives take their adverbial form in front of verbs, EXCEPT da/desu?

    hayai desu
    hayaku suru
    hayaku hashiru
    etc...

    (But yeah i was like looking for the reason for this, philosophical or etymological (spelling/word?) or whatever)
  • I think that Japanese grammar experts (which I'm certainly not!) argue about whether 'desu' is a verb or not. But in any case the examples you give would translate as something like this (depending on context):

    It's quick
    to do quickly
    to run quickly

    so it seems straightforward to remember. I take the point that your first example of 'painting greenly' is slightly different, though you could argue this makes Japanese more consistent. I think it's just like chopsticks vs knife and fork - two different ways to do the same thing.
  • Posted By: Moberg
    [p]Hmm, so noone has like some rule to remember that adjectives take their adverbial form in front of verbs, EXCEPT da/desu?[/p][p]hayai desu
    hayaku suru
    hayaku hashiru
    etc...[/p][p](But yeah i was like looking for the reason for this, philosophical or etymological (spelling/word?) or whatever)[/p]


    Sure. Da is a copula, basically a verb connecting two things, meaning they are being one. In i-adjectives however, a da meaning is incorperated, which means "hayai da" is grammatically incorrect. "kore ha hayai da" would mean "this is is fast". Desu and da are, countrary to popular belief, not the same thing. The desu in hayai desu doesn't hold the copula meaning anymore, it's just a honorific.

    So yeah, desu in this case, is not a verb. (Da isn't really a true verb either since it's more of a particle in its current use).
  • Posted By: Tobberoth
    [quote]
    Posted By: Moberg
    [p]Hmm, so noone has like some rule to remember that adjectives take their adverbial form in front of verbs, EXCEPT da/desu?[/p][p]hayai desu
    hayaku suru
    hayaku hashiru
    etc...[/p][p](But yeah i was like looking for the reason for this, philosophical or etymological (spelling/word?) or whatever)[/p]
    [p]Sure. Da is a copula, basically a verb connecting two things, meaning they are being one. In i-adjectives however, a da meaning is incorperated, which means "hayai da" is grammatically incorrect. "kore ha hayai da" would mean "this is is fast". Desu and da are, countrary to popular belief, not the same thing. The desu in hayai desu doesn't hold the copula meaning anymore, it's just a honorific.[/p][p]So yeah, desu in this case, is not a verb. (Da isn't really a true verb either since it's more of a particle in its current use).[/p][/quote]
    oops hayai da was a nice mistake by me ^^;

    Uhm, I still wonder why they say "hayaku naru" (become quickly) instead of "hayai naru" (become quick). Since the meaning is not "become /something/ quickly", but "become quick". Very weird indeed....
  • Posted By: Moberg
    [quote]
    Posted By: Tobberoth
    [quote]
    Posted By: Moberg
    [p]Hmm, so noone has like some rule to remember that adjectives take their adverbial form in front of verbs, EXCEPT da/desu?[/p][p]hayai desu
    hayaku suru
    hayaku hashiru
    etc...[/p][p](But yeah i was like looking for the reason for this, philosophical or etymological (spelling/word?) or whatever)[/p]
    [p]Sure. Da is a copula, basically a verb connecting two things, meaning they are being one. In i-adjectives however, a da meaning is incorperated, which means "hayai da" is grammatically incorrect. "kore ha hayai da" would mean "this is is fast". Desu and da are, countrary to popular belief, not the same thing. The desu in hayai desu doesn't hold the copula meaning anymore, it's just a honorific.[/p][p]So yeah, desu in this case, is not a verb. (Da isn't really a true verb either since it's more of a particle in its current use).[/p][/quote][p]oops hayai da was a nice mistake by me ^^;[/p][p]Uhm, I still wonder why they say "hayaku naru" (become quickly) instead of "hayai naru" (become quick). Since the meaning is not "become /something/ quickly", but "become quick". Very weird indeed....[/p][/quote]

    They aren't saying become quickly, that makes no sense. You're translating Japanese literally with the use of grammar. Remember, grammar are rules made up to learn a language, they aren't the rules the language is built on. Just because hayaku means quickly in one context when translated to English doesn't mean hayaku in hayaku naru also means quickly.
  • I agree with Tobberoth, and I'd have to add that 'naru' doesn't always translate well as become. For instance with colours, 'kao ga akaku natta', would translate better as (eg) 'his face went red' or 'he went bright red' or something like that than 'his face became red', though I could imagine a Japanese student saying that during an English lesson.

    I don't find it 'weird' that languages from completely different language families, developed on practically opposite parts of the world, have differences in the way they describe the world, and differences in their grammatical structure.
  • No of course not... but... oh well...
    I would say that become and go (went) are synonyms in your example Richard so I that's not really a difference. Of course not all languages are 1:1.
    I just want to know what the japanese were thinking when they started using "hayaku naru", instead of "hayai naru" or maybe better "hayanaru"...

    Or maybe I just want to know what an adverb is, since there has been hot debating whether Swedish har adverbs in the same sense as in English at the Swedish Wiktionary. (quick - snabb/snabbt; quickly - snabbt)
    Im going insane :P
  • Posted By: Moberg
    [p]No of course not... but... oh well...
    I would say that become and go (went) are synonyms in your example Richard so I that's not really a difference. Of course not all languages are 1:1.
    I just want to know what the japanese were thinking when they started using "hayaku naru", instead of "hayai naru" or maybe better "hayanaru"...[/p][p]Or maybe I just want to know what an adverb is, since there has been hot debating whether Swedish har adverbs in the same sense as in English at theSwedish Wiktionary. (quick - snabb/snabbt; quickly - snabbt)
    Im going insane :P[/p]

    Adverb is an adjective to a verb. Sure, it might be a way a very simple definition but it works.
  • [p]Adverb is an adjective to a verb. Sure, it might be a way a very simple definition but it works.[/p]
    And it's an inaccurate definition as well.
  • An adverb is a part of speech. It is any word that modifies any other part of language: verbs, adjectives (including numbers), clauses, sentences and other adverbs, except for nouns; modifiers of nouns are primarily determiners and adjectives.

    Adverbs typically answer questions such as how?, when?, where?, why? and to what extent?

    Taken from the English Wikipedia.

    My own language's Wikipedia page (Dutch) says basically that an adverb can modify any part of a sentence except a noun, otherwise it would be an adjective.

    In Japanese you talk about 副詞:

    おもに用言(動詞、形容詞、形容動詞)を修飾することば(連用修飾語)。名詞や他の副詞を修飾することもある。自立語。活用はしない。

    副詞の種類と働き

    状態の副詞
    主に動詞を修飾し、動作・作用がどんな状態(どのように)かを表す。「すぐに」「ときどき」など。
    程度の副詞
    疑問・禁止・感動などの意味を付け加えるもの。「とても」「もっと」「かなり」など。
    叙述(陳述・呼応)の副詞
    被修飾語の部分に決まった言い方を必要とする(副詞の呼応という)副詞「決して」「なぜ」「ぜひ」など。
    指示の副詞
    物事の様子などを指し示す副詞で、「こう」「そう」「ああ」「どう」の四語だけである。(指示語)

    * 例
    o 「ばたばた走る」だと「走る」が動詞であるので「ばたばた」が副詞となる。
    o 「とても美しい」だと「美しい」が形容詞であるので「とても」が副詞となる。
  • Someone who feels like translating? ^^
  • Posted By: Moberg
    And it's an inaccurate definition as well.

    In what way? In the english sentence "Run quickly" the adverb quickly describes the verb, just like quick in "quick runner" describes the noun runner (adjective).

    So as you see, the definition is actually highly accurate.
  • As I know, adverb is not an adjective, whatsoever.

    But okay, otherwise it's not incorrect, but it doesn't include all adverbs. Adverbs can also modify adjectives, sentences, other adverbs etc...
  • Posted By: Moberg
    [p]As I know, adverb is not an adjective, whatsoever.[/p][p]But okay, otherwise it's not incorrect, but it doesn't include all adverbs. Adverbs can also modify adjectives, sentences, other adverbs etc...[/p]

    Adverbs aren't adjectives in the least, I'm just saying the best way of knowing when something is an adverb is to check if the words act as an adjective for a verb. If it does, it's an adverb. You're however correct in that it's not true for all adverbs and situations, it's just a good mnemonic. The true definition is that adverbs describe circumstances, which is much harder to apply.
  • Posted By: Tobberoth
    [quote]
    Posted By: Moberg
    [p]And it's an inaccurate definition as well.[/p]
    [p]In what way? In the english sentence "Run quickly" the adverb quickly describes the verb, just like quick in "quick runner" describes the noun runner (adjective).[/p][p]So as you see, the definition is actually highly accurate.[/p][/quote]

    It's not inaccurate as such, but it is an incomplete definition.

    In "I really feel sick", the adverb "really" modifies a verb. However, in "I feel really sick", it is modifying an adjective.

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