Missing Kanji radical in radicals table? (6 strokes)
  • Hello, even with the risk of ridiculing myself, I thought I'd risk an attempt of announcing a possible mistake in Denshi Jisho.

    It's about this character:

    D.J. suggests that this character cannot be further broken down into other radicals.
    Now, why isn't it found in the list under 6 strokes then?
    Just to be absolutely sure, I went through all 6-stroke Kanji even though some were silly to check as I knew them. But said one was nowhere to find.

    Whenever the Kanji is "atomic", it must appear in the list. That's my understanding of the matter.

    Well, I do smell a small error.
  • Interestingly, however, 老 comes up in the search results at http://jisho.org/kanji/radicals/ when you click image... probably an error.

    Edit: Then again, it may not be an error exactly. Denji Jisho probably uses the kradfile for radical decomposition, and it says there as a comment:

    # 3) The original kradfile used JIS x 0208 kanji to represent radicals. In
    # several instances there were no JIS x 0208 kanji which were also
    # representative of the radical alone, so a JIS x 0208 kanji containing the
    # radical was used as a kind of radical "place holder". When I developed
    # kradfile2, I maintained this convention so that kradfile2 would be simple
    # to integrate with existing tools already using kradfile.
    # The following legacy JIS x 0208 kanji "place holders" are now replaced by
    # the radical/element itself:
    # 老 which stood for
  • Ugh. Thanks so whenever I have to look for a word that uses the full 6-stroke Radical 125, I will have to look for the 4-stroke one instead.
    It should not make necessary any further comment that this may put insurmountable obstacles to early beginners, since if one does not know about this fact, he/she will have no chance.

    Easiest way out would probably be to declare the 6-stroke one as a compound of the 4-stroke one you found plus X.

    Thanks again.
  • I'm not certain I understand what you mean, but the only problem is with the kanji details page that displays some parts incorrectly. The kanji-by-parts search page displays them properly, however.
    Everything else seems to work fine, so once you have identified image as a part of 老, you would find the kanji painlessly. You are aware that "kanji-by-parts" is not the same as classical radicals?
  • I am.
    But again: it's like you say, and that is not good. I mainly *do* use the kanji details pages, in particular I would often look on the RIGHT hand side to a) either identify the kanji as atomic or b) check what single radicals it is made of. That helped me many times.

    And hence, it IS a problem that a kanji character is erroneously defined as built up only by itself ( = atomic) whilst it is actually made of two or more radicals in fact.
    Plus, the "once you have identified X as a part of Y" is another related problem. I might succeed sometimes, while another time I might not succeed, searching forever to no avail.
    Well, I think it's actually the dictionaries' job to explain these kinds of combinations of radicals. And as a matter of fact, if the "old man" Radical 125 IS a combination of radicals and if this is not shown in the details page, this is an error!

    "but the only problem is with the kanji details page that displays some parts incorrectly."

    You're expressing this "only problem" as if you were merely shrugging upon it, deeming it marginal enough to be disregarded; however, I already pointed out above why it may *not* be marginal at all.

    "The kanji-by-parts search page displays them properly, however."

    I couldn't care less. (EVVK, as the Finns say.) I'd like to have a fix for the kanji details page, and I'm not fond of working around the problem. I wish there was a bugzilla or something like that to report bugs like these.
  • I'm sorry, I understand your problem now and yes, while not strictly and error, the result is as bad as if it were one. Well, I can't do anything about it, however, we need to wait until @Kim sees this.

    The reason why I never noticed this and why I seem to shrugging upon it, is that I don't need to know what parts a kanji consists of. I mean, it's not as if it "really" were made up from these parts, just that some person identified these parts, so that looking up kanji becomes easier. That classification is to a degree arbitrary, and not guided by etymology nor semantics, but only by visual and graphical concerns. Why do you want to know whether 老 is atomic according to the kradfile or not?

    Or to to draw a comparison, I personally consider that information as important as the SKIP or some other dictionary index.

    This project provides a decomposition of kanji into a number of visual
    elements or radicals to support software which provides a lookup service
    using kanji components.
    The initial files were based on work done in 1994/1995 by Michael Raine in
    which he analyzed all the JIS208 kanji and identified the constituent radicals
    and other common elements, with the intention of facilitating the selection
    of kanji within a dictionary program (JWP) by identifying multiple elements.
    The file was coverted into a pair of text files and revised by Jim Breen in
    September 1995. Many further revisions have been made over the years.
  • Like @blutorange says, this is a legacy from the radkfile (although I'm using Jim Breen's version, not the Kanjicafe one.)

    @andy_e, I understand your frustration, and I agree that the breakdown of kanji parts should be displayed the same on the radical selector and on the kanji details page.

    Given the prevalence of Unicode now it should be possible to update the radkfile with proper glyphs of all the radicals, making it easy to show correct data everywhere. I've added this to my todo list.

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